Curse

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 17, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellix Cantero

The "PVP Community" has no one to blame for the failure of GW PVP but themselves. The vast majority have been elitist prats who do anything in their power to alienate people outside of their cliche. ANET built GW with PVP in mind as the endgame. They did everything they could to get people interested in playing it.

Blaming human nature isn't very constructive. The core value of pvp is competition, naturally the format attracts players who want to improve and get better than others. Competition involves using cynical means, the carebear approach won't get you anywhere.

Competition in real life isn't any less cruel.

*lemming* · Oct 17, 2010, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Anyway, a PvP title giving a bonus is perfectly fine with me, but then I don't see a reason for equally uncommon pve accomplishments not to give any bonuses.

Outside of the fact that the most uncommon PvE accomplishments don't have any in-game titles associated with them, I agree with you wholly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

The same argument about diversified objectives can be turned over: why is it not mandatory to have, say, a Survivor or LDoA? Again, PvP being "special"?

I don't mean to sound offensive when I say that it's because any legitimate PvP title requires skill in addition to time, compared to those two examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I don't see that much of a difference between AI exploitation and synching, skill abuses, RR-day and such.

Because you PvE, you're an armbrace duper.

See, I can do that too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Guild Wars is a rather simplistic game that doesn't require that much skill at pretty much any level, not even in PvP. PvP requiring fracionally more skill than PvE doesn't make it any special to me. PvE and PvP are two utterly different things with so little in common I wonder why people keep comparing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortior

Don't fool yourself into thinking PvP is any less of a flowchart fight than PvE. Sure in pvp the enemies think for themselves but in pve the enemies get ludicrous buffs. Regardless, flowchart and counters win everything.

You are wrong.

A. Noid · Oct 17, 2010, 08:37 PM // 20:37

With regard to the rather noticeable lack of pvp statues, Anet seems to be of a mind not to force folks to play with or against other players.

One has to wonder why there hasn't been a move to add 7 heroes.

I mean, really, why not include pvp statues? They made a wonderful game, including both pvp and pve content, so why not honor folks from both persuasions? Are we really all just that narrow-minded?

Oh.....wait.....

Swahnee · Oct 17, 2010, 08:49 PM // 20:49

I want to say two things about the idea that i see around here, that people that earned the difficult PvP titles should also be HoM-awarded, with those who achieved only the PvE ones. All generic "yous" here, as always.

I don't think that HoM has been added to state if you are a skilled and serious player or not.

If that was the case, then i would agree that PvP titles should count more than PvE ones, as it's my opinion that they actually require more skill to be achieved (when played the "right" way, not bought). Then you say: "but they can be bought, not earned". Yes, so do PvE ones, and this is the reason why watching only characters' titles it's impossible to decide if they're skilled or not, and this is a reason (with the next ones written below) why HoM shouldn't be considered a way to distinguish skilled GW players from less skilled ones.

Then, I think that HoM is only a mean to connect two different PvE storylines, so your PvE character in GW2 can go around saying that 200 years before, his ancestors did this and that. For this reason, in my opinion those who are (or think to be) skilled and serious about PvP, they shouldn't care about what is or isn't required to fill HoM, because HoM isn't meant to applaude good players at all.

I think that ANet did a bad mistake using that name "PvP statue": it's obvious that ANet never wanted to add a reward (namely, the 50/50) that only a little part of the community could/would achieve. They added a reward that almost everyone (talking about those interested in these kinds of rewards) could and would achieve, given enough playtime, for the same, old, reason: make people play GW1 more (and hopefully, also GW2). And they have been really successfull, since a lot of people who stopped playing have come back (like a lot of my old friends whose names in my friends list have been greyed out for years).

So, to summarize, i can think of 3 reasons why HoM isn't here to reward being a good and skilled GW players:

1-It's impossible to distinguish good players by their titles, since all of them can be bought or mindless grinded in some way. So no HoM will never be able to say who is better than who at this game.

2-HoM is made to connect two PvE storylines, and you don't have to be a good GW player to do something in GW1 worth of be remembered by your future characters in GW2 (for example, beat all campaigns, exploring zones, vanquishing, etc.).

3-It is against ANet commercial interests to present a reward that only a few players can or want to achieve. ANet want almost everyone to be able to reach 50/50 (the time to reach that goal before GW2 is out is enough even for casuals imho, and even for those who start playing now), because they hope that those people will buy GW2.

Back to PvP, I think that the best thing ANet could do to please his players from the PvP point of view isn't to add HoM rewards or such, but to make the updates that PvP needs in GW1. So it would make more sense imho if those who care about PvP were louder about skills updates and such than about meaningless (from the GW1 PvP point of view) HoM rewards.

Gill Halendt · Oct 17, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I don't mean to sound offensive when I say that it's because any legitimate PvP title requires skill in addition to time, compared to those two examples.

Skill to play... RA? If you say so...

So let's put it this way: since this has turned into yet another "PvP is better than PvE" thread, can I ask why are you that upset about what really looks like a PvE thing to me (skill-less hoarding to get shinies into a PvE-set gallery into a PvE-only expansion)? Rewards offered in GW2 seem anything but a big deal, more like collector items for nostalgia.

You already had your wonderful reward: you got the skills, you got the pride, you're the elite of the game, so why bothering about bonus PvE items? A matter of principle?

If you want to make it a matter of principle, the HoM just shows the path taken by the game: GW being played by a majority of PvE players is simple fact, so the developer pleasing their majority of customers makes perfect sense to me. They're running a business, they're pleasing the masses, not the few in the PvP-elite.

I'm pretty sure that, if the Calculator required a "serious" PvP title, or more points for PvP to be complete, and than all those PvE players just flooded RA and brought their crap there, PvPers would have complained about it anyway. "The HoM bringing more skill-less noobs to PvP. Anet puts nail into PvP coffin". Oh, well...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Because you PvE, you're an armbrace duper.

See, I can do that too!

I just wanted to outline that abuses and exploits run rampant even in the perfect, skillful, PvP world. If you think no PvPer never ever botted, nor cheated, nor abused of gimmicks, nor bought a title, or a ranked account... well, it's your problem.

But wait, weren't you among those asking for a fix to synching in RA last summer? So the problem IS there... Aren't those synchers just PvP-title farmers? Did I just dream about rupt-bots? IWAY?

But still, I'll stop talking as requested. Who cares, really, this thread is going nowhere.

dwchang · Oct 17, 2010, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

People are making a big deal about this, so big it makes me laugh. You sound like you're really convinced that succeding in a videogame (or, in this case, a specific game mode) takes that much skill. A prime example of elitism.

Why does everyone equate "skill" with "elitism?" Have you seen Soul Wedding of the Last Pride monk? Did you watch War Machine's amazing comeback against LuM in the Semi-Finals of the first Guild Wars World Championship? If you don't think that required skill, teamwork and coordination than you clearly have a very different viewpoint than I do. Those players and teams are clearly more skilled than the other teams/players and it showed. Does that make them or anyone who thinks it's impressive an "elitist?"

Why do so many people automatically equate "disagreeing about PvP play" as someone who is an elitist? The term is thrown around so often that I sometimes question if people know what the word means. Isn't it just as likely that folks who have different experiences and tastes have differing opinions?

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 17, 2010, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwchang

Why do so many people automatically equate "disagreeing about PvP play" as someone who is an elitist? The term is thrown around so often that I sometimes question if people know what the word means. Isn't it just as likely that folks who have different experiences and tastes have differing opinions?

You should at least agree upon a definition of what "being elitist" means. To me it means someone who refuses to play with people who are not equal to or above his/her own formal rank or actual skill level. This attitude is usually accompanied by an obvious disgust for players not meeting these criteria.

In reality most, if not all, people want to play with good people and if the objective is difficult it will even become necessary to team up with the better players to achieve it. In most parts of pve the objective is easy so it's not necessary to discriminate or "be elitist". However you find the same "elitist attitude" when you try "high end pve", just go to temple of ages and see for yourself.

It is also less than uncommon to think that oneself is a great and skilled player, regardless of format. Most people think they are better than they are, which is in itself a hurdle to improvement. Again it's only human nature to protect one's ego so that you feel good about yourself. Failing in pve? Blame your team mates. Losing in pvp? Blame your allies.

*lemming* · Oct 17, 2010, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Skill to play... RA? If you say so...

Surprisingly enough, just because the word Random is in the arena title doesn't mean that results are random.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

If you want to make it a matter of principle, the HoM just shows the path taken by the game: GW being played by a majority of PvE players is simple fact, so the developer pleasing their majority of customers makes perfect sense to me. They're running a business, they're pleasing the masses, not the few in the PvP-elite.

If there's to be no recognition for excellence in PvP in GW1, even though recognition is offered for even trivial PvE accomplishments, it's not a particularly good sign for competitive play in GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I just wanted to outline that abuses and exploits run rampant even in the perfect, skillful, PvP world. If you think no PvPer never ever botted, nor cheated, nor abused of gimmicks, nor bought a title, or a ranked account... well, it's your problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Did I just dream about rupt-bots? IWAY?

It's indicative of how little you know about the subject that you lump all of those together in the same category. It's also an unfortunate sign that thse beliefs appear to be credible.

But really, when have any of these things been "rampant," other than bots earlier this year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

But wait, weren't you among those asking for a fix to synching in RA last summer? So the problem IS there... Aren't those synchers just PvP-title farmers? Did I just dream about rupt-bots? IWAY?

My idea for a fix was only presented as something that could be easily implemented.

Siraena Vairidean · Oct 18, 2010, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

What's so special about FoW or Vabbian armor that they give your HoM an extra point?

Just like GWAMM and the HoM requirements in general, the existence of diversified objectives incentivize doing stuff that you wouldn't normally do. It's not so much that it'd be a special title so much as that it would get the completionists to try something out of their comfort zones.

You're missing the point.

The game is an establishment. We the players make our own goals based on the establishment. One player has decided not to purchase EoTN because they don't care about the rewards, while you're going ape over the way the rewards have been established. Between the two of you, who's right?

For this topic, all I'm arguing is that no one is right.

JR · Oct 18, 2010, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

If there's to be no recognition for excellence in PvP in GW1, even though recognition is offered for even trivial PvE accomplishments, it's not a particularly good sign for competitive play in GW2.

It's shiny PvE stuff for PvE players, that's it. How you think it has any relation to ArenaNet's plans for competitive PvP is beyond me, the two are so vastly unrelated.

What kind of recognition would you like? Perhaps they should carry over PvP titles? Maybe we can start Guild Wars 2 and discriminate against new players right from day one with our largely irrelevant Guild Wars achievements? That would be just fantastic, wouldn't it.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 18, 2010, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

It's shiny PvE stuff for PvE players, that's it. How you think it has any relation to ArenaNet's plans for competitive PvP is beyond me, the two are so vastly unrelated.

What kind of recognition would you like? Perhaps they should carry over PvP titles? Maybe we can start Guild Wars 2 and discriminate against new players right from day one with our largely irrelevant Guild Wars achievements? That would be just fantastic, wouldn't it.

Is it really so wrong that noobs play with noobs? I'm sure if you were to organize your alliance to HA on a specific day you could monopolize the whole game.

JR · Oct 18, 2010, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Is it really so wrong that noobs play with noobs? I'm sure if you were to organize your alliance to HA on a specific day you could monopolize the whole game.

If you want to make life harder for them, sure.

'Noobs' are the lifeblood of any competitive game, and everything possible should be done to encourage them.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 18, 2010, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

If you want to make life harder for them, sure.

'Noobs' are the lifeblood of any competitive game, and everything possible should be done to encourage them.

Do you really think anet is going to add something in the game that's going to stop pvp guilds from carrying over to gw2 or people having recognizable names in the pvp community?

You're only hope is to trick or force pvp players to play with the inexperienced.

Missing HB · Oct 18, 2010, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

You already had your wonderful reward: you got the skills, you got the pride, you're the elite of the game, so why bothering about bonus PvE items? A matter of principle?

Let's take the reverse question : Why would someone who repeated the same thing 24/7 , farmed ectos ambrances etc and thus get easily 50/50 be more rewarded than some guy from Rebel Rising , who did win several GvG mats ??????

@ Gill Halendt : You obviously believe PvP is just a farm , but well , i don't think that beating humans is (always ) easier than beating mobs the same way 24/7 ( i.e DoA sc , UW sc , where the same tactic work always ) . Against humans , you need adapt , get tactics , etc...

Calista Blackblood · Oct 18, 2010, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Let's take the reverse question : Why would someone who repeated the same thing 24/7 , farmed ectos ambrances etc and thus get easily 50/50 be more rewarded than some guy from Rebel Rising , who did win several GvG mats ??????

Because they put in the effort to farm their ectos/gemsets and whatever other shiney they want,in what is a PVE DOMINATED GAME! There is nothing to stop rawr members or members of any other high ranked GvG/HA guilds doing PvE,infact I've played with some recently.

GvG has absolutely no bearing on what is,and what arenanet wanted to be a primarily PvE playerbase and I'm pretty confident most high ranked GvG guilds are aware of this..

You chose your side of the game thus made your bed,now shut up and lie in it! If you want the PvE benefits,do PvE

cantalus · Oct 18, 2010, 02:23 PM // 14:23

no, you're wrong, feel free to back your statement up with some evidence

however, why get excited? unfortunatly anet didn't achieve the pvp game it intended
to, but as long as you're having fun....

of course bbway has made HA no fun for pps like me, but i guess that's another story

Tommy's · Oct 18, 2010, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Let's take the reverse question : Why would someone who repeated the same thing 24/7 , farmed ectos ambrances etc and thus get easily 50/50 be more rewarded than some guy from Rebel Rising , who did win several GvG mats ??????

PvE is not equal to PvP and thus why would it be rewarded the same way. For great PvP'ers there is the reward of people knowing you. And why is everyone aiming for the rewards. Isn't the fact that you play something you like (wether its PvP or PvE) a reward on itself? As long as you are getting no rewards its good, but once someone gets rewards more easily then you OH NOES OMG DONT GIVE THEM. Thats just selfish.

Beside that, the PvE'ers don't get many points for farming ecto ambraces and such they get the points for vanquishing and sorts. Thats a different thing. The one thing you actually get from PvP that is usefull is money (being in zaishen keys). So your argument is beyond absolute nonsense. With the z-keys you can get tormented weapons, opressor weapons and destroyer, so dont see a problem there. With balthazar factions you can unlock pets, making filling the fellowship part also not that bad to do.

Just the fact that most of the points are acchieved ìn PvE doesn't mean its way so hard for PvP. Its seriously so overexagerated. And to beat all campaings on a character just takes a week or 3. On the way you can buy shiny armors too. Just... Don't make a mountain out of this.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 18, 2010, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista Blackblood

Because they put in the effort to farm their ectos/gemsets and whatever other shiney they want,in what is a PVE DOMINATED GAME! There is nothing to stop rawr members or members of any other high ranked GvG/HA guilds doing PvE,infact I've played with some recently.

GvG has absolutely no bearing on what is,and what arenanet wanted to be a primarily PvE playerbase and I'm pretty confident most high ranked GvG guilds are aware of this..

You chose your side of the game thus made your bed,now shut up and lie in it! If you want the PvE benefits,do PvE

The game was primarily about pvp endgame but as time went on it was unprofitable because it was easier to recycle the same pve content than to create a new style of pvp. After buying one campaign you have all the pvp but you need additional purchases for all the pve.

JR · Oct 18, 2010, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Do you really think anet is going to add something in the game that's going to stop pvp guilds from carrying over to gw2 or people having recognizable names in the pvp community?

You're only hope is to trick or force pvp players to play with the inexperienced.

Of course some guilds will carry over, and of course some people will have recognizable names.

There are many hundreds of veteran PvP players out there with high champ/hero titles, who you have probably never heard of. The knowledge and experience of these people would far better serve the game if they were scattered amongst the entirely new players, allowing them to share it.

This is nothing to do with tricks or forcing anyone, it is a basic design principle in a competitive game.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 18, 2010, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Of course some guilds will carry over, and of course some people will have recognizable names.

There are many hundreds of veteran PvP players out there with high champ/hero titles, who you have probably never heard of. The knowledge and experience of these people would far better serve the game if they were scattered amongst the entirely new players, allowing them to share it.

This is nothing to do with tricks or forcing anyone, it is a basic design principle in a competitive game.

Unless you turn every match into a pve PuG where you have to teach the team that just wants to leeroy to play to the objectives than pvp will be organized and discriminate.
The point I was making with the guilds and recognizable names is that they are already organized and ready to move out to gw2 pvp unlike gw1 which became more organized and made a set playerbase over time. Also whats stopping people in gw2 from using you HoM calculator as a form of resume to get entry into a pvp guild like how you need high ranks now.